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Business Partners and Life Partners: Julien and Michael Sheridan
Interview & Words Phadria Prendergast
WOTC got up close and personal with Julien and Michael Sheridan, co-founders of their global retail design empire, Sheridan&Co. Having worked with an extensive list of global luxury brands, boasting names such as Christian Louboutin, Dior, L’Oreal, Gucci, Dolce & Gabbana and Bergdorf Goodman, the pair have been in business with each other since 1983 - just a year longer than they have been married. In an exclusive unfiltered and unedited interview, Jules - as I best know her, and Michael tells all on what life as business and life partners is really like, and the importance of knowing your role, and staying there. It was an interesting and engaging conversation throughout to say the very least. Their transparency was refreshing and it was evident they were a strong unit - mostly, I think, because they understood their positions and neither of the two ever attempted to cross that line, and there is certainly always strength in knowing exactly who you are.
It had just gone 18:00 on a fairly busy Saturday in May, and I was due to get on a call with Jules for the second time that week. Of course, this time ‘round was with her husband and business partner Michael. I was looking forward to hearing his perspective too. I opened the floor, mostly reiterating to Michael what Jules and I had spoken about - which I’m sure she had also more than likely done, after our call a few days prior. I continued, explaining that I just wanted to know more about their business partnership and how it had successfully progressed for 38 years, with 37 as a married couple. It was profound. Michael went first.
Micheal: I think there are lots of things. In my experience of working with Jules, I think, you know, obviously we're very close and so, things like honesty and knowing the person you're working with, it's easy to take for granted. But it's really important in the sense that you kind of know that the other person is doing everything with the right intentions and, you know, there's no sort of hidden agenda. It's not like they can go off your radar at six o'clock in the evening or disappear until nine o'clock the next morning, when you start work again, you know. You're together, so that's a great thing in some ways. And I think the most important thing for us has been the fact that we have different skill sets. We are good at some things that are the same, but many things that are not the same. I think it's important to recognize what it is that you're good at and make sure that your energy goes into those things, rather than necessarily trying to do the same things as each other.
Jules: Yeah, it's not about competing, is it? So there's so much that Michael's good and strong at that I'm just not, and we know that, after such a long time. So it would be absolutely ridiculous for me to suddenly muscle up and want to compete. And I think that we learnt quite quickly that it's much more about support. So I'm the support and that's fine. I think now people - especially when they have babies, it's really pressurized on the mother to be back at work and, in the rat race. It's so pressurized. We didn't have that, we looked forward and thought ‘what's best for the kids,’ and the best [thing] for the kids was that I support Michael - he works successfully and fully, and I do the behind the scenes stuff. Whereas now, I think everybody's trying to do the same amount and it’s now, 'right I've done 4 hours house work, now you do 4 hours house work.' That just wouldn't work with us.
Micheal: I think we've been quite clear in terms of defining who's doing what rather than as Jules says necessarily, all trying to do the same thing. I think that's quite important. And I think, it's [as] true with business as it is with marriage; you've got to remember that, all people are individuals. They're all their own person in the way they think and how they act and behave with different situations, but also that they have different skill sets and they have different things that they can bring to the table. Jules is just so brilliant with people and with me and people, if I employ them to do a job, I expect them to do the job. I'm not really so emotionally attached in the sense that I'm not thinking.. And of course I want them to be happy in their work, but I'm thinking, 'are they doing the job.' That's the main thing I'm thinking about. Whereas Jules is probably thinking about cultural things and what they add to the whole organization. Are they good for the company? Are they helping other people? Whereas I'm sort of thinking, 'have we finished that job?' Have we got that job done right? [Micheal laughs]. Have we got this done? In that respect, there's an example of an area where people are obviously very important to the business, and we're both involved with all of our colleagues, but we have different roles.
Jules: We've got an amazing team Phadria, and we have had all the way through. We always pay people well to do their job properly. We've always employed good lawyers. good accountants. We know that's not our area. So we wouldn't fight over that. We have proper insurance and we would always agree on health and safety being important and things like that. We know our limitations too.
Micheal: I think some of the things that people enjoy about working with us, is that they haven't got two bosses who are, if you like, on a different page. They know that we're very much of a unit in the sense of, yes, we're focusing on different things, but we're very much of a unit. In a funny sort of way, it's a bit like bringing up children. You know, children will - if they find a divide between the two of you, they're in there like a shot, they'll take advantage of it and there just isn't one. So, you know, it's reassuring for people, I think. But also, it kind of sets the tone that we attract, if you like, no bullshit people, [he laughs]. Because there is none between us.
Micheal: We do have a little go at each other over something.
Jules: Yeah, we don't agree on everything do we?
Micheal: Of course we don't. And I think that if you're the type of person that wants to come and do a day's work and do that job, rather than necessarily have to deal with the politics of people, who don't necessarily communicate well and all that sort of stuff, that's a huge advantage.
Jules: Michael is more of an ergonomic, he can make things work. He's an engineer and I'm much more of an aesthetic - [I’m] into the look and the feel, and Michael can make things work. So when we're doing an all night fit, in let's say a department store, putting a site in for a client or in a standalone store, Micheal can walk in and there's not one part of that job he can't do. So, nobody can tell him that 'we can't do that', he'll go 'yes you can'. In an all night fit, I'll be the one cleaning, preparing, making sure we're on time and merchandising, whereas I wouldn't be able to tell if somebody was wiring something upside down or incorrectly, but Michael would know from 3 to 4 feet. He'll go 'that's upside down'. I think that's what's been really interesting over the years, where there have been people who could tell me that something can't be done, and he'll go 'yes it can.'.
Micheal: Because we've been through a lot in a family sense and in a personal sense as well together, we have a sort of get on and get it done attitude.
Jules: What I haven't told you is that in 2013, Michael had been away in the Far East for 3 months, and [when] he came back - he was working over there, he didn't look great and I made him go to the doctor. he went and he came back, and he was quite casual about it but I said ' no, no, no. I can see this isn't right.’ So I had him at another doctor on the Saturday, and then he went in on the Monday [for surgery] and in fact, he needed a quintuple heart bypass. So at that moment, he's gone. It was maybe [an] 11, 12, 13 hour surgery. And he didn't come back to work for a long time. That was stressful, but the team pulled together. We had people in the business that were just amazing, but [at] that point, it was all on me. We had our team in New York, we've got a team in London, we've got the factory and market - but people were great, really. They just pulled together and just did what was needed to be done.
Micheal: Ultimately, it would never have worked as well as it has, had both of us not been on it.
Jules: Yeah. We can't imagine how it would feel to have a business partner, that you don't really have a hundred percent of the same investments.
Micheal: I think the downside is knowing when to stop working and start living your life together.
Phadria: Yes, what has that been like?
Micheal: Well, the thing is, to a certain extent, when does the working day start and stop? Does work overtake your life together? In the sense that, if you're both going off and doing a different job and coming back in the evening - and I mean, I don't know what that's like because I've never lived it. But, maybe there's a clearer, defined definition between work and leisure and work and family time. Whereas work has always kind of been quite a big influence in our lives, so sometimes it's hard to know.
Jules: We did try and stop at nine o'clock. We tried at nine o'clock in the evening to stop talking about work, but that didn't always happen, but we would try to Phadria.
Micheal: [Laughs]
Jules: Or otherwise, it's too much. Well, we know now. We're learning now that it's just not healthy. You've got to switch it off and you've got to try really hard to have time off. Whereas before, when we were younger, we felt we had to live, breathe and die for it, but it's not effective is it?
Micheal: I'm still very project focused and Jules has got such a broad circle - she does all the stuff. I mean, I'm sure Jules doesn't want to do what I do, and I don't want to do what she does.
Jules: I couldn't do what you do.
Micheal: And I couldn't do what she does. I don't think I could. Jules is brilliant at networking and she's got loads of people that she knows.
Phadria: She is, yes.
Jules: I don't call it networking. I hate that word Phadria, I just like mixing with interesting people. I really love talking to people and I find people so interesting.
Micheal: And I find machinery really interesting.
[We all laugh]
Phadria: So it works then [chuckling].
Micheal: The great thing about a piece of machinery is that you turn it on and it works and, it's never off sick [laughs] and I don't have any problems. They don't have any issues. [he laughs again].
Jules: We've got an amazing managing director, who started with us as a junior project manager 14 years ago. She did luckily read Psychiatry or Philosophy at university, which has been very helpful for her, because she can manage us. She's just amazing. The age difference between her and us is key because so much has changed. I'm 61, she's 42. And then, a lot of our team are 30 and younger and they are different people than the 60 year olds are. We've got our oldest son, Freddie, in the business and he and Michael now talk about work. They all came into business when they were like 10 and 11 helping us at weekends. helping us to polish stuff and clean stuff. And they've all been involved; the kids, over the years. But Freddie went to work elsewhere before, then he came back and he's an integral part. He's like our visionary now. But Mike and him, you will spend that much more time talking about work than you and I will now, won't you? [addressing Micheal].
Micheal: Yeah that's true. Then we've got Minty doing our social media, managing all the content on that side, making sure people know about what we're doing and making sure people are aware of what we're about and all that sort of stuff.
Jules: But she's got her own business, she doesn't work for us and I think that's really important. She has to correct us. Because again, she knows what people want to see and read. If we said 'why don't you post this', she'd say 'no way, that's not what you post.'
Phadria: I love that you take on board their opinions. I think it's also great that you both really know your roles and you don't try to override or overstep that. Was it difficult at first, trying to understand your roles?
Jules: At first, I was working elsewhere, so it was just very intense because I would do 9 to 5:30, and then I'd come home and do the work work. So no, I was always [the] support role, and as I said, I haven't been consistently in all the time, because when the children were small, we were still working from home. So we probably had up to five or six people working in the house, which wasn't normal in those days. It is now. So no, I don't think we have ever struggled with our roles. I can do admin so much quicker than Michael can. So all those secretarial skills that I already had are bloody useful. I don't think it's such a bad thing for people to do secretarial courses if there is such a thing anymore, because you get such a broad knowledge of office skills, it's just so useful. I don't mean [just] girls, I think it should be taught at schools - [for] boys and girls, so they can do their own admin.
Phadria: And how long have you been married and how long have you been together?
Micheal: We've worked together longer than we've been married [laughs].
Phadria: Wow!
Jules: We started going out in 1981 when I was 21.
Micheal: And then yeah, we got married three years later.
Jules: We started the business in eighty three and got married in eighty four. I think mostly, you go through different stages of marriage and partnerships business wise. I think when we were younger, we saw marriages break up and the wife would take half of everything and half the business, and you just took what's left and you think 'well that's a bit dumb.' Because that doesn't really work. Nobody's got anything now. There's more pressure on you to stick together when you've got the business.
Phadria: I think it's all a choice anyway.
Jules: And that's the key. It is a choice, and that is the difference between now and 40 years ago. It's a choice. Most wonderful times - nobody has to stick at anything or with anybody anymore, which is a real improvement isn't it?